TLDR

In this episode of BidCast, Jason Kam speaks with Richard and Erbil, co-founders of Huma Protocol, about their innovative approach to decentralized finance (DeFi) and payment solutions. They discuss the importance of Total Active Liquidity (TAL) for capital efficiency, the role of PayFi in enabling faster transaction settlements, and their revenue generation strategies. The conversation also covers scaling plans, liability composition, and the significance of partnerships in driving growth. The founders emphasize their commitment to risk management and the potential for future growth in the DeFi space, particularly as regulatory clarity improves. They conclude with insights into tokenomics and the value capture for stakeholders.

Chapters / Timeline

• 00:00 Opening

• 01:12 Introduction to Huma Protocol and Its Founders 

• 02:00 Understanding Total Value Locked (TVL) and Capital Efficiency  

• 05:20 Exploring Payment Financing and Transaction Volume  

• 08:21 Revenue Generation and Interest Margins  

• 12:16 Scaling Strategies and Growth Projections  

• 16:04 Liability Composition and Risk Management  

• 19:09 Current Business Volume and Future Opportunities  

• 22:09 Self-Sufficiency and Future Growth Plans  

• 26:02 Partnerships and Market Positioning  

• 31:21 Business Development Landscape and Acceleration Factors  

• 35:48 Strategic Partnerships and Collaborations  

• 38:12 Credit Card Settlement Innovations  

• 50:18 Future of Payment Systems and Adoption  

• 54:12 Integrating Existing Players into the Ecosystem  

• 01:01:18 Long-term Vision and Market Disruption 

Transcript

<< Jason Kam (00:38) >>:

Okay, I think we're live. Well, good afternoon. Welcome to an episode of BidCast. I'm your host, Jason Kam, AKA @MapleLeafCap . Today is June 12th, 2025, 12.30 p.m. Hong Kong time. BidCast is being live streamed to BidClub members. Questions are from the members and my own. This is not financial advice. Today I'm speaking with Richard and Erbil, the co-founders of Huma Protocol. Guys, welcome.

<< Richard Liu (01:05) >>:

Great to be here. Thank you Jason for having us.

<< Jason Kam (01:09) >>:

Yeah, it's the first time I did two co-founders at once, so this will be a fun one. We have the...

<< Richard Liu (01:16) >>:

Actually,

it's the first time for me as well. I have recorded a bunch of podcasts, but this is first time, Team Up with Erbil

<< Jason Kam (01:24) >>:

That's fun. It'll be really good. ⁓ So we see your metrics out there in your Dune dashboard, in the public domain. That is about 90 to 100 million of TVL. We know that you have lent out about $2.4, $2.5 billion of lending volume and recruit all of it without any default. Can you just bridge for us on how you think about turning that...

sort of TVL base into volume into ultimately sort of the cash flow and revenue for Huma Can you kind of just bridge that for me?

<< Richard Liu (01:58) >>:

Yeah, sure. But ⁓ Jason, before we jump into that, can we have the opportunity to share our philosophy about TVL? We have some reaction to that term. OK, so we actually created a total vanity leaderboard. But TVL serves this purpose in DeFi 1.0, because that's a way where people lock their capital in certain protocols to show their confidence.

<< Jason Kam (02:09) >>:

Sure, please.

<< Richard Liu (02:26) >>:

But ever since then, honestly, it has become a burden. And many projects are forced to chase for TVL. And they get a lot of capital they cannot use. And they actually  cannot use. And they don't become a burden for them. And in our case, we always believe in capital efficiency. And when we build Huma Protocol, we always think about sustainability.

When you think about sustainability, you think about long-term and also short-term, you think about capital efficiency. And that's why we only want to lose the capital that we think we can use. So that's why we call it total active liquidity, TAL, if you look at our dashboard carefully. So there is one little difference, but that's a critical difference. So at this moment, we have about $100 million total active liquidity. Most of them we deploy into something we call the PayFi

Payment financing, we use this capital to enable all kinds of payment transaction settlement. Normally it takes three or four days. We use this stablecoin-based settlement solution, make it go a lot faster. And majority of the capital is put in there. We probably have about 70 % to 80 % of capital deployed into all kinds of use cases. Then we also have another 20 to 30%.

we deploy into high quality, low risk, DeFi opportunities such as Aave and Kamino. This is mainly to meet our LP's redemption needs because PayFi assets usually take about three months in locking the capital. But if we got to have enough cushion for people to finish redemption. So Erbil, you want to add more on the, how do we change the transaction volume?

<< Erbil | Huma (04:15) >>:

Yeah, turn the

total active liquidity into productive use, which you saw as $2.4 billion in origination and about that much in payback. So total about close to $5 billion in total pay-fi volume. So if you want to break it down further, we have two big use cases. One is the settlement liquidity for cross border payments. And the other one is settlement liquidity for stablecoin back cards. So those are the two use cases. The settlement liquidity for cross border payments

is our bigger use case. the use case is here is the origination use case here is that ⁓ we actually call this transactional credit and it gets paid back in about two to six days. What happens is think about an example cross border payment institution as Western Union. I collect as Western Union, $10 million today from people who want to remit that to Mexico. And I need to settle that $10 million with my distribution partners in Mexico. What I do,

If I'm a PayFi platform partner, I tap into the liquid assets, stable coin assets to actually settle immediately with my distribution partners in Mexico. And it takes me about a few days to turn around that, you know, money I've collected and on rampage to pay back that USDC liquidity back. Right. And then I can reason repeat this as many times. And what happens  in reality, we actually turn around this, you know, a hundred million dollars of active liquidity for about

4.4 times every month, which is about 50 times a year per origination. And then there's 50 times a year for the paybacks. for every million dollars actually of liquidity creates about a hundred million dollars you know in volume, right? On both ends, origination and payback on the ecosystem. That's why you see close to $5 billion of  total volume. And  we're projecting end of year being around $10 billion or so. And then how do we turn to...

<< Jason Kam (06:11) >>:

⁓

<< Erbil | Huma (06:12) >>:

yield and revenue, right? Use AST. Maybe Richard, you want to take that one?

<< Jason Kam (06:14) >>:

Yes, please.

<< Richard Liu (06:17) >>:

Yes, so from your perspective, you think about this one. We charge business borrowers, they're more like different fintech companies and financial institutions. We charge them somewhere between 12.5 % to 15%. And so you use that one, you think annualized. And so you don't do the transaction level. Of course, each transaction level, when the capital deployed, they're probably charged on a on a BIP's purpose.

<< Jason Kam (06:36) >>:

annualized.

<< Richard Liu (06:47) >>:

BIPs, basis for our customers. And in our case, but we charge them annualized from APR perspective. with 100, and then some of the capital, as I said, we deploy into the DeFi side, then the yield is lower, like 8 or 9%. But then you look at about 12%. With 100 million dollars, right now we're looking at 12 million dollars annualized revenue. And from a yield perspective,

So that's how much our income side. Now what's the cost? So LPs can participate in our process in two modes. One is called a classic mode, where we pay 10.5 % at this moment plus some token rewards. And also you have a maxi mode, where the LPs choose not to take any stable yield. And they only get rewarded by feather and the token.

So at this moment, 40 % of people choose to be classic mode, 60 % in the max mode. That means 10.5 times 40 % are actually borrowing cost is 4.2%. This leave us about 7 % net interest margin. And that's put us in a very, very good situation.

<< Jason Kam (08:08) >>:

Got it. So that's about a 5.5 % spread, which is like you make like five to six million dollars of...

<< Richard Liu (08:15) >>:

No,

7%. Right, 12 minus 4 something. 7%.

<< Jason Kam (08:20) >>:

I'll watch it.

Got it. Wow. Okay. So that's like seven million. Okay.

<< Richard Liu (08:24) >>:

Yeah, that's

Yeah, so basically you think about 100 million every year. Your net interest margin would be around $7 million. And then, of course, from here, you can continue to scale the size from 100 million to 500 million. And of course, once you scale, more and more people will move down to the classic mode. Your cost may be higher, but your margin no longer becomes 7, probably actually it's 5.

So that's still very, very healthy domain of thoughts to be in.

<< Erbil | Huma (08:59) >>:

Yeah,

that's the spread you're talking about. That's interest spread between what you're gaining versus what your cost of borrowing is.

<< Jason Kam (09:10) >>:

I see. Sorry, and just so I understand this, like 100 million of TAL, of which right now you are keeping 20, let's call it 25 million of it just in DeFi, 75 of it in just like the business that you run, you turn this 4.4 times a month, so a velocity of 50 times a year, you know, that...

<< Richard Liu (09:17) >>:

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Yeah.

<< Jason Kam (09:36) >>:

75 to 80 million becomes about 5 billion of transactional like lending which will get back So that's how you get to the 10 billion number, right? And then and then all of this blends to maybe 12.5 to 15 percent annualized Okay, okay

<< Richard Liu (09:52) >>:

Analyzed. Yeah, but when you do

the analyst you use a capital did capital do the calculation use 100 million to do the calculation instead of your few billion dollars transaction volume. Yeah.

<< Jason Kam (10:02) >>:

Yeah,

that's right. OK, so that's how you get to maybe 12.5 to 15 million of annualized revenue. And the DeFi yield is lower of like 8, 9. So the actual business, you probably charge five bips a day or something. That's actually 15 to 20 % type of fee that you can charge on the vendors you work with.

<< Richard Liu (10:25) >>:

That's right. For example, our underlying, the biggest departure is ARF. ARF, they charge 5 to 10 bibs a day. Yeah, typically 6 to  10.

<< Jason Kam (10:28) >>:

well.

Hmm.

Okay, wow. Okay, that's a good business.

Got it. And on your liability side, because 40 % of that $100 million is like maxi, so they're not getting any yield. 60%, OK. Oh, wow. So you're really paying interest costs on $40 million of that $100 million. And that 40 % is like 10.5%. So it's like four, call it four and a half. OK.

<< Erbil | Huma (10:48) >>:

60%.

<< Richard Liu (10:48) >>:

As this one 60, 60%. 60%.

Yeah,

4.2, yeah. Same percent. Same.

<< Jason Kam (11:09) >>:

Yeah, so you have a net interest margin. You have a net interest margin of

seven to eight percent on that hundred million.

<< Richard Liu (11:16) >>:

Yeah, yeah, right now it's we feel it's a good business.

<< Jason Kam (11:22) >>:

Yeah. How do you, when you think about your path of scaling it from 100 million TAL today to let's say 500 million over time,  what's a timeline of that scaling? How fast can you get there and how do you get there? Is it still the permissionless, you know, everybody aping or is it from other means?

<< Erbil | Huma (11:40) >>:

there are multiple different ways this is gonna scale. So I think the most important thing to talk about is, what we're focusing on is not to just scale this to $2 billion or $5 billion of active liquidity right away because...

we have strong principles that we are protecting, which is sustainable growth of assets with low risk exposure and sustainable yields with very high utilization of the capital coming in. So those are the main principles of how we grow. And on the ARF side, which is kind of like our regular entity through which we serve the trade fine and the payment institutions, we are dealing with mostly tier ones and tier twos, which takes a bit of time to onboard because these are

large institutions, need to prepare them from digital operations perspective, you need to get regulatory clearance and then deploy them and not necessarily deploy them at where their demand is, you deploy them from the basis and then you monitor their work and then their whole operations to make sure everything is working very smoothly and then you scale them over time. So with that, we can easily grow that business to 3X, 5X,

even maybe 10X by the end of next year. So that's kind of like the span we're looking at. There's a lot of alpha here in terms of the planning because if we decide to actually...

create a more balanced yield opportunity. Right now, our yields are more shifted towards like LPs and we provide one of the best yields on chain. You can actually scale even faster, right? So with the macro interest rates going down, actually we can scale a bit faster because we have this spread opportunity in between. And on the second side, on the card partnership side, even though it's right now a relatively smaller portion of our total volume, we have some very large pilots

going on with some of the biggest players in that world that drives trillions of dollars of volume. And it can quickly scale us to hundreds of millions of dollars in active liquidity once those pilots mature to a point where we become the de facto platform, the onboard stablecoin based cards or the onboard, the settlement partners on the acquirer side, merchant acquirer side to settle in stablecoins, right? So that's like, you know,

one of those pilots maturing and getting to a scale where we think is probably gonna happen around early next year is easily a few hundred million dollars of active liquidity and a lot of volume that comes with that. And then the last, I think, opportunity is some of these also big PayFi assets that are established with more than $10 billion in arm are looking to actually partner with us and come onto our platform.

to get DeFi distribution and other  benefits by being on our platform. And they obviously can add up a good chunk of asset volume. So  again, like what we have can scale easily, 5x, 10x by end of next year, but  these new opportunities, both the pilot and the established partners like that can add up like order of magnitude more volume to the whole platform.

<< Jason Kam (14:59) >>:

Mm.

<< Richard Liu (14:59) >>:

So

what Erbil covered is more on the asset side, more on the demand side than on the supply side. So the liquidity side. To be honest, whenever Huma says we have new cap, and people are chasing, usually within a day, the cap is filled. So this supply is very, very strong on the defi side. But meanwhile, we also have large ⁓ financial, large

trade five players give us permission. You we need to do 100 million, those type of neighborhood for, you know, deals. And I think we have a few of them lined up. And right now at this moment, we focus on just still consuming with the DeFi capital.  In the next few months, we're going to gradually open door for TradFi to come in.

<< Jason Kam (15:50) >>:

Interesting. There are a few questions and some of these growth initiatives I do want to hit on because they are quite important. Just on a liability side first, when you look at maybe two, three years, assuming that demand side gets you there, what do you think the composition of the liability would look like on that 500 million? Is it mostly crypto native capital or is it like TradFi taking most of it, kind of like Cantor with Maple? What do you think that 500 million will look like in terms of composition?

<< Richard Liu (16:19) >>:

I would say that really depends on the risk profile for the demand side. so far, we took very conservative approach. We only take tier one and tier two type of players. Our risk is very low. But since we are a smaller brand, we are a new brand, the market does not treat us  as a super, super safe asset.

So the market is still treating us as revenue, a risky. Once you reach to 300 million range and people see you have not enough tracking record, then they are going to see that part become, oh, this is actually pretty safe assets. And then from there, you're most likely, your stable yield is no longer at 10.5%. You get more close to the normal market, 8 or 9%. Then in that case, you can actually get the capital from all kinds of sources.

I can imagine if you talk about 500, at that moment, most likely half-half.

<< Jason Kam (17:22) >>:

I see. OK. So it's kind of like Defi natives gets you to 250, 300, and then right at that happens, it's going to turn on and Cantor and, you know, OK, makes sense.

<< Richard Liu (17:30) >>:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Then after 500 most likely they TradFi will play bigger role.

<< Jason Kam (17:37) >>:

Got it. And then this is all hopefully happening by the end of next year.

<< Richard Liu (17:42) >>:

Yeah, target 500 minutes. Next year

<< Erbil | Huma (17:44) >>:

target is a little bit at the end of next year.

<< Jason Kam (17:46) >>:

And

of the $4 $5 billion of lending you're doing today,  how much of that is this kind of cross-border transaction versus credit cards like today currently?

<< Erbil | Huma (17:58) >>:

It's about 90 % is cross border payments. It's our biggest volume because that's where we focused on. And that's why we also merged with ARF last year. was our of like killer app and fastest growing use case on our platform. And then Card is where we are looking to rapidly grow because it requires a bigger build out to really plug into this big networks.

<< Jason Kam (18:02) >>:

Mm.

<< Erbil | Huma (18:24) >>:

So right now we have RAIN that's being powered by us and we're looking to grow that, but obviously the opportunity on the network integration side is much bigger. So we think that by end of next year, the composition might be maybe, you know, 40 % cross border, 40 % card settlements on the acquire and the issuer side and

<< Jason Kam (18:33) >>:

Mm-hmm.

<< Erbil | Huma (18:49) >>:

probably 20 % or maybe even more depending on some of these big players plugging in on other PayFi assets.

<< Jason Kam (18:57) >>:

Got it. And sorry, and you did say that to get to 500 million, you said that you can 3 to 5X your existing business that is cross border? Okay.

<< Erbil | Huma (19:06) >>:

easily that's like by end

of next year, we can even probably 10X depending on picking certain partners. Right now we're lucky because a lot of our partners coming from trying Ripple first and then not liking it very much and then onboarding with us and then sticking with us. And I think that's creating a world of math, you know, and also some of our partnerships, you know, with Circle and others opening up doors with the new regulatory frameworks, you know, being pushed around the world.

<< Jason Kam (19:18) >>:

Yeah.

<< Erbil | Huma (19:32) >>:

I'm making TradFi and these payment institutions more comfortable plugging into our system.

<< Jason Kam (19:38) >>:

Yeah, I definitely want to touch on all of that before we get to these business side of the topics. I want to narrow some numbers down before we get there. So seven million of net profit basically flowing to the entire Huma. I guess what's your burn today with the labor and sort of the cost base? And how do you how do you get from that seven to eight million dollars of profit to, let's say, a protocol treasury or like kind of accrual to the token?

<< Richard Liu (20:04) >>:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I think that I want to add one clarification to your point about the entire Huma. This is only Huma protocol portion. Huma protocol portion captures at 7 million. ARF still has their own margin captured. That's separate because that's more on the equity side. So on the token side, everything's captured on the Huma side. That's 7 million dollars. On the Huma side, honestly, right now, our burn, you're excluding all the one-time listing fees,

Well, around 250-ish, but with the foundation built out more, we expect that will go higher, probably burn rate about 300k a month. So you can imagine, you will end up to be basically 300 as burn and 300 as more like adding to the reserve to the foundation. Half of them goes to the foundation reserve.

<< Jason Kam (20:57) >>:

So basically, ⁓ you won't need to sell any tokens. You don't need to raise capital anymore. You kind of are fully self-sufficient at the moment.

<< Richard Liu (21:06) >>:

From that perspective, yes, unless we see major opportunities. Today we have one killer app of ARF, and we're also launching with the third parties. But tomorrow, if you see another major killer app that we think makes sense for us to build, in addition to the platform, then most likely that part, then we are looking for more capital. But with our current growth plan, we will be self-sufficient.

<< Jason Kam (21:33) >>:

Okay, We can talk about the token value capture and in sort of if you hit your target. Back to the business out of things I guess you have 3 venues of growth: One of each is the existing business you can maybe even 10x again because of the demand that you see The second part is this new credit card

And a third part is, I guess, working with more partners doing potentially similar things, but tapping into your infrastructure, your technology, your source of capital, and so on and so forth. Is there anything else that sort of really, really excites you besides these three things that you want to cover first?  Or we can kind of take through this one by one.

<< Richard Liu (22:09) >>:

 That's right.

I would say platform. The platform has built to be very, very powerful. Initially, we saw that it's more like the on-chain lending platform, especially with all kinds of structural finance building for fintech. And we believe we have the most powerful capability. But turned out after Huma 2.0 built out, we found we have a new powerful platform that is basically the PST token distribution with all the different integrations.

So what happens when user deposit capital into Huma and they get a token, LP token called a PST, Pay-Fi Strategy Token. Then that strategy token is integrated with Jupiter, Camino, Rated X, Underless, Meteor, and Orca. So all of those are tied together. So that means this token itself has intrinsic yield and that one is plugged into the entire Solana ecosystem.

That means Solana ecosystem see additional yield. That ecosystem become much more interesting. This is a flywheel already. We make that flywheel bigger. So everybody's welcome us. We become major player. So now this is more like we become the DAI of Solana. DAI bring a lot of energy into the EVM ecosystem. Solana is looking for something that can connect the real world yield with the Solana DeFi ecosystem. I think we are well positioned.

with that infrastructure, then that basically come with a lot of distribution power. Now a lot of PayFi assets, even some RWA assets wants to work with us. Right away we're saying, hey, we're going to focus on PayFi and we need this stuff. But our capability will position us to be very powerful player.

<< Jason Kam (24:07) >>:

Yeah, do you plan to expand PST to  Ethereum anytime soon?

<< Erbil | Huma (24:13) >>:

Good question.

<< Jason Kam (24:14) >>:

I mean, like, AAVE

and whatnot. It's quite interesting, because the SUSD PT of Pendle became this thing on AAVE, and they're just looping this thing. Yeah.

<< Erbil | Huma (24:22) >>:

Totally. Totally. I think, yeah, it's

just a no-brainer, right? Right now, we're just building the whole thing, the whole ecosystem and all the plugins into the DeFi ecosystem. So sophisticated LPs can leverage their positions, can have a very liquid play. And that's why we built a lot of our partnerships on the Solana side and built the framework. It's very easy for us because we already partnered with Layer 0.

on the Huma token to make it on the chain. It's ready for us to turn on, know, PST being available everywhere. And we have a lot of demand coming from, you know, other ecosystems for that. And we'll do it at the right time. But right now we're just focused on making sure we are a de facto, you know, assets  on the LP asset on Solana side and, you know, become the DAI of Solana. And we also see a lot of net new stablecoin inflows just because of us, right, into the ecosystem.

We want to make sure that's like reestablished and then go just replicate it at scale.

<< Jason Kam (25:25) >>:

It's a really cool initiative because when it's looped appropriately with adequate YT incentives with Huma on top,  would seem to me at least the TVL from the DeFi native side shouldn't be a problem for a long time. I remember a while back we talked about 10.5 % not being that exciting, but now if you can loop this with PST with additional yield on top with Huma, it's become...

<< Richard Liu (25:46) >>:

-

Yeah.

<< Jason Kam (25:55) >>:

But basically, I would expect any time you open a cap is when you have a lot of demand on your business side, so you need more capital. And right when you open it up, you should be able to fill in no problem. in a sense, after a TGE, you should be at a phase where you should just be able to grow rapidly. Capital should not be a constraint for you.

<< Richard Liu (26:09) >>:

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, indeed, that's the case. And I was laughing, you said, both Erbil and  when you said 10.5 is not as interesting. Go to ask people who invest in Huma pool. They will tell you a totally different story. Yeah.

<< Jason Kam (26:28) >>:

Yeah,

well, the DeFi well is dry, so 10.5 is actually pretty good.

<< Erbil | Huma (26:33) >>:

Yeah, actually

people  have, some of them actually have made their  sophisticated strategies more public on Twitter and they generate way more than 10.5 % using those strategies that you suggested and way more than that. Right? So we even have a TradeFi investor who is creating an SPV just because they figured that there's opportunity. And they're actually one of our big, you know, token investors as well.

<< Richard Liu (26:45) >>:

Waymo

<< Erbil | Huma (27:02) >>:

They want to combine those soft-skill strategies and some of the sticking strategies on the Huma side to create an SP that is like a fluid-liquid, 40-lp base. And, you know, they think they can actually quickly fill that up and bring, you know, bring that onto the protocol. I think this is, to your point, proves that at least on that end, we don't have a constraint. The main thing is, you know, get the best assets developed, you know, make sure the risk exposure is very low and make sure the yield is very sustainable.

<< Jason Kam (27:18) >>:

Mm.

At what point, you don't have to say this if you don't want to, but at what point will ⁓ Pandel and you have an official poll on Solana or Ethereum?

<< Richard Liu (27:42) >>:

No, I actually already work with a kind of similar product called a Ritex. It's already in life. So basically all the popular DeFi play on Solana were already in different forms.

<< Jason Kam (27:47) >>:

Yeah. Okay, yeah.

Okay.

Okay. It's just a more pendle-specific question, but I'm aware of the that it's life. Okay.

<< Erbil | Huma (28:00) >>:

And the handle wants

to do it on Solana as well. we're happy to, once they are ready to deploy on Solana and do this on Solana, we're happy to do it. It's just before Pendle exists, there's rate X, which is a, know, equivalent on Solana side. And all those strategies are basically already deployed on rate X.

<< Jason Kam (28:13) >>:

Of course.

Of course, of course. ⁓ And the last bit on the numbers.  I should imagine all of the revenue and cash flow ⁓ and eventually after cost-profit generating on the Huma side,  there's no equity or token split here. It's just occurring to token holders over time.

<< Richard Liu (28:36) >>:

That's correct. That's correct. Yeah. Huma side

 only ends up with a lab and then with a foundation. So either way, it all be captured on the token side.

<< Jason Kam (28:47) >>:

Got it, very good. And then, so let's talk about the business side. I think, you know, 3 to 5x or even 10xing your existing book of business that is 90-95 % of your $4 to $5 billion of lending. I guess it's a two-part question. Kind of walk me through how you ramp that so quickly over the next 12 to 18 months, because that's a pretty significant growth. And then secondly, has the listing of Circle helped you?

in getting sort of that number there faster.

<< Erbil | Huma (29:19) >>:

Yeah, very good question. So there are actually two different ways this grows, right? As we said, we focused on working with tier one and tier two for two reasons. One, obviously, this exposure is much lower when you work with them, but two, they have a lot of internal capacity to grow. They also don't want to put all of their eggs in one basket. They don't want to push all of the treasure operations into this stablecoin-based settlements. They also like to start relatively low exposure and then...

growth from there on. just within the, you know, the client base that we have at the SER, there is actually a lot of room for growth. And, you know, some of the growth is just going to come from planned growth that we enable on a monthly or quarterly basis for them. Right. So that's kind of like what we know ⁓ happens with the existing client base. And then we also know that  there are different ways to, you know, balance the current yield.

you know, with the macro changes and that will enable a few other, you know, very big players to just like turn on the lights and start basically pushing more of their volume. And we know those players can easily double or triple right by end of next year, the existing volume as well. So combined together, you know, that's, that's where we're confident that we will see two to five X easily by end of next, next year on the existing business, but maybe even the alpha is, know,

up to 10X or so on the existing business.

<< Richard Liu (30:47) >>:

Mm-hmm.

<< Jason Kam (30:48) >>:

Why haven't the big players turned on yet today? Some of these logos that you're signing.

<< Richard Liu (30:52) >>:

No,

<< Erbil | Huma (30:53) >>:

And the.

<< Richard Liu (30:53) >>:

actually we do. Go ahead, Erbil

<< Erbil | Huma (30:56) >>:

Yeah, there are basically ones who already did that, right? So we have some of the biggest players that you mentioned circle when they wanna onboard the big player, they usually push us to help onboard them. Same thing happened with Solana Foundation when they were onboard a big player on Solana Pay or on the institutional side, they pushed them to us to help them get onboarded because we can really help them adopt these technologies without themselves having too much expertise in-house. That's kind of like already happening.

And then there are ones where they're either waiting for regulatory clearance and in different parts of the world, stable coins is still not like 100 % enabled from regulatory perspective. And it's a matter of time. know this is gonna happen in the next year or so in different parts of the world. then you're gonna actually see them going live. And some of them are just basically waiting to just like...

negotiate and figure out like where they can replace, you know, some of their existing treasury operations and treasury capital  with basically the liquid that we're bringing in, right? So that's like why some of the cycles take actually longer, but we know once we enable them, it's very sticky.

<< Jason Kam (32:11) >>:

 Do you work with any partners in? Yeah, go ahead.

<< Richard Liu (32:12) >>:

But

Jason, just to add, right now on our table, we already have three actual very meaningful brands. There's only one of them that allowed us to disclose the name. That's LuLu And even when Circle launched their payment network, they were one of the launch partners as well. And there are two other ones also very significant. But we cannot disclose their name yet.

And some of them we are ready, we're gonna see scaling starting from next year.

<< Jason Kam (32:45) >>:

Yeah. I guess the signing on of these logos,  the conversations with them and ramping volume, has there been any given time in the past couple months or quarters has this sped up? Because we noticed the Circle IPO, we saw this tryback with Brex, and now Privy. And there's a lot of moves. Do you feel like it accelerated? You couldn't get them to sign on a quarter ago, now you can.

Can you guys kind of walk me through the BD landscape today?

<< Erbil | Huma (33:15) >>:

Yeah, maybe I can talk about the Lulu case since Richard mentioned that, because I think it's an important glimpse into the future. It's one of the largest payment players in UAE. And a couple of things happened at the same time, which is, one, UAE created probably the most progressive  legislation around stable coins, Circle officially launched  in UAE with USDC, with Lulu being one of their biggest partners.

And just that relationship from beginning to end and the scale, it's very, very quickly scaled on our platform, very, very quickly. So I think it gives you a glimpse of like when an institution is ready and bought into the stable coin based feature enabled by Circles infrastructure, but also enabled by the regulators to actually double down on this vision, we see things ramp up very quickly. And then obviously there are regions where onboarding might take six months.

right, because it takes longer for them to get ready, you know, have the conversations with the regulators and get the clearance. Those we believe, again, once the clarity is there from the legislative perspective, will accelerate quite a bit because, you know, they're bought in from a BD perspective. As long as, you know, you have the right structure that you're plugging in and they kind of, you know, solution to actually help their treasure operations not take too much overhead.

They're born in from a BD perspective.

<< Jason Kam (34:45) >>:

Aside from Circle and Solana, could be working with you and helping you to moat? I would imagine, and it's what excited us initially too, is that you guys actually go to Silicon Valley very often, you guys have extremely deep connections with the fintech ecosystem there. It would seem very clear to me that maybe other crypto-native firms like Ring Up Stripe, Ring Up Revolut, they wouldn't answer the calls, but when you call them, they would answer and they would work with you.

Do you expect a lot of these kind of partnerships going forward with these companies and wrapping up your business?

<< Erbil | Huma (35:19) >>:

Richard, do you wanna take this one?

<< Richard Liu (35:20) >>:

Sure.

To your question, besides for the big players, besides Circle and  Solana, we also partner very closely with Stellar. And especially the actual bunch of our early customers were introduced by them. It's in their network. They are very well-plugged for cross-border payments players.

<< Jason Kam (35:39) >>:

Mm.

For those who don't know, tell

us who they are.

<< Richard Liu (35:47) >>:

Erbil helped me with the pronunciation. I have trouble pronouncing their company name.

<< Erbil | Huma (35:53) >>:

You mean Stellar Development Foundation? Yeah, so SDF, Stellar Development Foundation is basically, you you can think of XLM as their thing. They are one of the earliest payment-focused networks that has a very interesting advantage, which is what they call Anchor Network. So you can go from stable coins to fiat off-ramp by just basically making a transaction on chain. And they're one of the, you know, biggest partners of Moneygram.

<< Richard Liu (35:56) >>:

Yeah, yeah,

<< Erbil | Huma (36:21) >>:

And they have a of Remittance players who basically operate on the Stellar networks ⁓ if they want to utilize, you know, stablecoin and PayPal just announced they're actually pushing PYUSD to also operate on the Stellar network as well. they're, know, ⁓ very much payments, cross-border payments focused network and ⁓ they onboard a lot of partners, you know, through us  on to the network as well. And then there are a few of those, you know, Silicon Valley based

 players that I don't think we are able to disclose the names right now because of all the  NDAs, but one of them is probably one of the largest  payment networks out there  and once we prove these pilots I think  they will be a major channel partner because we'll be plugging right into their network.

<< Jason Kam (37:15) >>:

Okay, that's all I need to hear. That's very good. And then, off the 3.5x ramp on your existing business, would you say it's mostly from your existing client base ramping up? Or would you say it already bakes in some big players turning on? Or another way to ask this is, if some of these players are turning on, that's the sort 10x bull case you talked about.

<< Erbil | Huma (37:36) >>:

That's the 10x block as I'm talking about. Yeah.

Yeah, what we have in the pipeline right now that you're onboarding plus the capacity existing, you know, packages can grow is three to five x.

<< Jason Kam (37:48) >>:

wow.

wow. Okay, very good. If it happens, it already gets you to that 500 million TAL target. This is completely excluding credit card. Okay. So tell me about credit card. guess maybe walk me through just how big could that business look like and what are you exactly doing in that business and kind of walk us through that.

<< Richard Liu (38:00) >>:

That's all.

<< Erbil | Huma (38:14) >>:

Richard, do you want to... Okay, ⁓ I can take that. So there are two different sides of the credit card settlement business. One is the issuer side, which is basically whoever is backing the card that you're paying with. And then there's the acquirer side, which is whoever is ⁓ orchestrating the payments to the mergers that you're making payments to. So there's two sides of the  network. And what we are doing is basically we're doing a pilot for this and we're doing a pilot for this.

<< Richard Liu (38:14) >>:

Go ahead, please. ⁓

<< Erbil | Huma (38:44) >>:

on the issuer side, we started working with, know, Rain, which is one of the early stablecoin backed card issuers. They serve stablecoin treasuries to issue cards, corporate cards usually. And these are all backed by stablecoins locked in a vault. And as they, you know, people use the stablecoin backed cards, someone needs to provide liquidity to settle on the Visa network that they use.

Right? And banks don't do that because bank don't care about, you know, stable coins locked in vaults. They have no clue how to necessarily, you know, provide facilities for that. But because this whole thing is on chain, we can create a fully closed loop, no counterparty system where, you know, all of those vaults are basically controlled from a payment, you know, access perspective and the liquidation perspective while we provide liquidity that's backing those, you know, stable coin vault assets.

to settle in the network and then we get paid back as soon as those vaults are liquidated or the partner makes the payment back to the network. So that's kind of like the issuer side, we're enabling the stablecoin backed cards to settle with the network that they're operating on. On the acquirer side, the equation is slightly different, which is acquirers today, especially merchants themselves who plug into acquired networks, they face a couple of challenges, especially in merchant markets.

the time to get your money once somebody actually swipes the card can take easily at least a few days, if not a week or maybe sometimes multiple weeks. And this is terrible for merchants because they actually are disengaged from accepting credit cards if they have a low margin business and high cashflow needs, they need to pay for supply, inventory, workforce, and it's pretty hard for them to actually make it work when their cashflow is locked in into the network.

So we're working with a few different merchant networks to pile something where when you actually swipe the POS, once you get the pre-auth from the issuer side that the person actually has the credit and can actually settle, we can just ⁓ front run this transaction, right? The pink can come back to the Huma network and say, okay, I don't settle this much in USDC with this merchant network. And the merchant can see that as a balance in their account without even knowing.

that they're getting paid in stable coins. the networks can actually charge the merchant for direct access and immediate access to that capital. And that can actually create a very strong economy, which again, almost zero risk that you're taking because you're not taking the issuer's credit risk. You're just basically fronting the settlement by creating this float and charging the merchants who want to access that capital immediately for that. So that's the merchant side of enablement.

We believe there is actually a strong business to build on both sides.

<< Jason Kam (41:43) >>:

Which side is bigger, you think? I guess it's not a fair question.

<< Erbil | Huma (41:47) >>:

Hard to say, I think

eventually the merchant side is much bigger, I believe, because regardless the stable coin back cards is going to be a portion of the overall card ecosystem. But more and more merchants will want to settle immediately access immediately. And we can do it again without exposing the merchant to a stable coin itself, as long as we provide the flexibility.

 for the merchant network itself or the merchant bank itself,  either directly adapting them to stable coin or even using some of our fiat capabilities that we're building right now to directly actually off ramp into fiat onto the network.

<< Jason Kam (42:31) >>:

And it's the Visa network or the MasterCard network that ultimately pays you that receivables you acquired from the acquired merchant basically.

<< Erbil | Huma (42:39) >>:

Yeah, we can get paid by

the merchant or the Visa Master Card Network, either way.

<< Jason Kam (42:43) >>:

And that's interesting because it does seem like that one could be bigger. I guess, how do I ask this question? ⁓ I'm not an expert in credit card at all, but at least my understanding is credit cards get declined all the time. I might not be able to pay, they get stolen. Do you feel like that's a risky business when you're taking payment financing for something like this?

<< Richard Liu (43:01) >>:

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Just very, very clear about this one. We are not financing the credit card itself. We are financing the credit card transaction itself. The credit card issuer, they are financing the credit card. They take all the credit risk. We only do the transaction they're supposed to pay. But because of the banking system just so slow, the credit card ecosystem moving multiple days.

We just find a way to help you to settle earlier. But that money you're paying out will come to me. So that's the way. We are not taking any of those type of credit and risk.

<< Jason Kam (43:38) >>:

 And...

Okay, that's exactly what I want to get to. Is the economics of this business similar to that of your existing cross-border transaction business?

<< Richard Liu (43:54) >>:

So I think early experiment people are paying us very well. But when you add the scale, when large brand wants to put their logo on it, this is what we intense. We are not there yet. But earlier.

<< Erbil | Huma (44:08) >>:

Yeah, we believe to be so, but we

cannot say because there's no comparable business today in the world, you know, to really say it is right there, but we believe to be so.

<< Richard Liu (44:13) >>:

Yeah. But

early experiment, the economics worked well for us.

<< Jason Kam (44:21) >>:

But it's like a better business in terms of economics.  The maturity does turn out a little bit. It's not like for sure two to six days. It's potentially weeks. But you get compensated for it.

<< Richard Liu (44:31) >>:

Yeah, So I think

it's a benefit. Both of them actually talk about it just one to six days. It's a very short duration. All those things we do is a short duration payment transaction financing. There's nothing to do. I know there are a lot of things, especially your audience, probably some of them in Asia, think about, OK, you guys take a P2P. Those are critical risks. No, we are totally different. We are only doing payment transaction.

The payment transaction is going. It's just travel too slow. And we have a faster track for them to reach to the final destination and get that one done. But the money will ultimately come into us. So that's the one. And what was your question back again?

<< Jason Kam (45:16) >>:

Yeah, I guess just the economics there is,  in the cross-border transactions case, usually, and in most cases, it's two to six days, there's no long tail months to get the money. But here, there's potentially times where...

<< Richard Liu (45:19) >>:

You

Yeah, yeah.

I think it's a bird that still they create her system and network is just be this. You don't want to go that long because we don't.

<< Erbil | Huma (45:41) >>:

As long as go directly

to Metzberg directly, the delay is not going to too much, right? The delay comes from multiple hops, you know, people need to go through to actually get to the merchant account itself. Yeah.

<< Jason Kam (45:53) >>:

I see what you mean.

<< Richard Liu (45:55) >>:

 So because

<< Jason Kam (45:55) >>:

I see what you mean.

<< Richard Liu (45:57) >>:

we don't deal with any real consumer credit card itself, we just deal with this transaction flow itself. Another piece I want to say, besides the economics factor, the other one is from LP, token holder, or whatever our product side. People can feel, man, this one is much easier for me to understand than the cross-border payments one. I think

that would give us quite some premium. That product from either from the LP's expectation on their yield, because they perceive this will be lower risk than the cross-border payments. Although in our view, the risk is probably comparable, but they view this will be because they can easily relate to it. They will much easier to give more appreciation to our product.

<< Jason Kam (46:45) >>:

I would imagine the existing payment networks would love you for that. Is there any competition doing something similar today?

<< Richard Liu (46:56) >>:

Well, I think this  is a driving force to disruption. But you think about today, obviously Jack has made his name on Twitter in the last few days, Airwallex He said, know, stablecoin is not going to help. But I would say, yeah, sure. You ask a Kodak CEO, would say, yeah, we don't need a cell phone to take pictures, right?

<< Jason Kam (47:07) >>:

Yeah.

⁓ that's rough.

<< Richard Liu (47:23) >>:

It's rough, but I just never see this way and I appreciate him. I appreciate him go to on a big stage to see it and I'm sure he will learn. I'm sure he will learn. I predict within a year he will change his mind. If he does not change his mind, his company will go down in a few years. That's my prediction. Although they're much bigger than us, but if he does not embrace, he will go down.

<< Jason Kam (47:42) >>:

Yeah.

You know, this clip, Richard is gonna get cropped and we're gonna try to make it viral. It's quite funny.

<< Erbil | Huma (47:53) >>:

I was going to

say, you don't see Dr. Payfi as passionate about a topic. I know internally, this tweet went up, obviously, we're laughing at it ⁓ from our perspective, because we see the waves of adoption coming in and how crazy that is. And we see big institutions telling us about their 50-year-old problems that hasn't been solved in the traditional Web2 or fintech world. And Richard was very eager to just go ahead.

<< Jason Kam (47:56) >>:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

<< Erbil | Huma (48:23) >>:

provide an opinion and a perspective on this because I mean clearly we have enough strong reason that to be

<< Jason Kam (48:30) >>:

Yeah, seems

like compared to the cross-border transaction business, are potentially alternatives where there are lot of factoring firms potentially helping them as well. This is potentially no alternative. It's kind of a new field. Maybe, and we all know that credit card transaction globally is a very big business in terms of trillions of transactional throughput. Okay, good, exactly. So on that note, like,

<< Erbil | Huma (48:52) >>:

16 to 20 trillion dollars.

<< Jason Kam (48:59) >>:

How soon, I think you mentioned timeline, like what's the blocker, how soon can you spin this up? then kind of, know, tell us a bit more versus like the 100 million you have today and like, what kind of a scope of this revenue generating TVL opportunities this could become?

<< Erbil | Huma (49:15) >>:

Yeah. ⁓

<< Richard Liu (49:15) >>:

Well, let

me first give a philosophical comment about what you just asked. Usually people overestimate what they can achieve in a short term. They underestimate what they can achieve in a longer term. So I can predict in 10 years, majority of those will be T plus zero, no matter it's cross border or credit card. So in 10 years, I can see a lot of business will be converted.

to be enabled by stablecoin or other infrastructure from blockchain and the settlement much faster than it is today. In terms of next one year, I think it will take some time for people to get used to it and to really to grow that business. That's why our overall forecast for next year is just modest, 5X from here today. But most likely we will be able to do better than that. But that's our forecast.

<< Erbil | Huma (50:11) >>:

And it's modest in the Web3 sense, you know, because obviously it's massive for...

<< Jason Kam (50:20) >>:

And the biggest blocker is just it's so new, you're building fresh technology for it and therefore everybody's, you know, let's just make sure it pilots well. Is that the blocker?

<< Erbil | Huma (50:29) >>:

Yeah, I guess.

<< Richard Liu (50:29) >>:

I think cross border we are

we're at a skinny cross border is nearly at a skinny cross border. You already have major players adopted in our customer base and it's just a fast to figure out. You know how do we as a robot mission is some of the any new customer wants to come on board. They have to go to set up all the banking relationship. They have to get their regulation, clear clarity. Those time it takes time as we go through different regions. For example.

We have several customers in Hong Kong. Where you are, have several customers have been go through that approval process for month, for month. And that's just the energy. But as we get through it one region, most likely you're going to see more and more customers from that one region. I think that will help us to grow faster.

<< Erbil | Huma (51:20) >>:

Yeah, like I'll give you an example, Jason. I was in Korea last week. I spent about 10 days and when I was there, the presidential election was going on and both candidates went on public talk about how they're going to energize the economy by adopting digital assets, adopting stable coin legislations and follow genius act and really push that forward because they are concerned about...

economy is slowing down and they want to make the economy go faster. And Korea is already a big digital payment adapter and innovator, and they just want to push it to the next level. And when I was just living, the election happened and then one of the candidates won. And that candidate literally a week later, just pushed the bill that they had prepared into public, right? it was like a discussion stage, which is like super rapid.

<< Jason Kam (52:14) >>:

Mm.

<< Erbil | Huma (52:17) >>:

you know, adoption on the legislation side. And I talked to the people who are actually working on the policy side on this legislation. And they told me that out of the top five payment players and finance, know, financial players, at least four of them are looking for, you know, global partners to, you know, quickly, you know, adopt these solutions and, plug in to, to provide this, you know, as a benefit to their, you know, users and also to open up more to the outside because

Korea financial system is pretty much a closed looped ecosystem. They see it as basically a way to grow their businesses by opening up the borders using the borderless economy in some ways and digital economy. And we're hearing similar things on the Japan side through our partners who have again helped circle launch in Japan. And we plan to do  ecosystem launch event and get into some of those businesses.

these things to Richard's point, it's hard to predict like where they would be like a year from now on, but it's easy to see, you know, where things are going, you know, five, six years probably, you know, from now on. that's why we're short term expectations, but we're very bullish on, you know, anytime horizon longer than one year.

<< Jason Kam (53:29) >>:

Yeah.

Yeah. And this is a good segue on the third big initiative. We talked about cross-border ramping, existing client base and new logos. talked about credit cards as a new initiative for you that will be probably really big in a couple of years. The third part is existing other players in this field working with you, tapping into your TVL. Walk me through how that works.

<< Erbil | Huma (53:59) >>:

Maybe it's a bit early to talk about the full picture, but ⁓ maybe give you an example of how this could work.  There are actually people who have built assets  with some on-chain exposure. The problem is  those assets have zero distribution today. And it's just like a lot of...

things locked and not really, you know, very productive and not very discoverable. And it's not really, you know, built the right way into the DeFi, right? Like we spend a lot of time thinking about PST and PST, how it plugs into, you know, different strategies on chain, the communal, you know, the loops and the rate eggs and the pen. We thought about all of these, you know, that creates this ecosystem around the yield paying LP token, you know, very deeply. we built a

successful example and they're now looking at this and saying, okay, how do I plug into this? How do I bring my assets? How do I actually make it work? And how do I become part of this ecosystem? So we're thinking about this as like, how do we take those existing big PayFi asset players and plug them into the whole framework? And again, it's still a bit early to give names or talk about the specifics, but...

Like one of them is more than $10 billion in size in terms of like assets they can bring on, right? So it's up to us in terms of like, where we can take it, how much of it we can bring into this framework or maybe how much more we can grow it if we plug it in the right way.

<< Jason Kam (55:42) >>:

Interesting. When will we find out more about this, you think?

<< Erbil | Huma (55:47) >>:

I'm hoping in about maybe three to six months. We're in kind of like active explorations right now in terms of the right model, know, financial model, business model, distribution models.

<< Jason Kam (56:00) >>:

Got it.

Got it. That's very cool. So looking through these initiatives, I suppose if you hit your target, the liability base would shift because you do have to, your NIM margin will probably compress. I'm guessing it goes from 7 % to, I don't know, 4 5%. Let's just, 5%. OK, OK, good. then, so that would be 25 million of net interest income minus your costs might go up a little bit, doesn't matter. So you're going to be playing with

<< Richard Liu (56:01) >>:

Mm-hmm.

Five, five, yeah, that's my prediction, five.

<< Jason Kam (56:30) >>:

If everything goes well, but not crazy, 20 million of net profit to potentially Huma token holders next year.  Like we discussed before, you're still anchoring for growth, so that 20 million will likely be in treasury redeployed for growth.  But over time, can you tell us more about, as you generate more cash flow, what would that mean for Huma stakeholders?

<< Richard Liu (56:53) >>:

I think a very straightforward one. Two options. One is that you grow. The other one is that you buy back your tokens. That's just a straightforward. We already, of course, we already have. We already have actually pretty good. We published another  angle is from the staking side. We published our staking proposal and the community near decade. Then people staking him a token. You not only get the staking award, but more importantly.

<< Jason Kam (57:03) >>:

Got it. Okay, so.

<< Richard Liu (57:23) >>:

your LP participation get a big boost. And people already did some modeling about those type of HEMA token, staking how much yield they can generate. It's actually pretty attractive. I cannot give a specific number, but it's very, very good. So if for any of the audience, you can do both token and LP, check it out. It's actually can be a very interesting angle. But to your question, most of those ones, once we have enough money in their foundation, besides the

gross under deserve, of course, naturally we're going to spend on buying back tokens.

<< Jason Kam (57:58) >>:

Yeah, and then going forward, think this is like, it might soon be relevant because you could be scaling very quickly as some of these businesses get there. Like, is there a point in your mind, whether it's TAL, whether it's kind of Lend Volume, is there a point you feel like 500 million, a billion, five billion, that the risk profile of your lending would change meaningfully so that you no longer feel comfortable committing to like 0 % default?

or sort of that one to six day sort of, you know, maturity period. Is there a time where you scale, is there a point where you scale where you stop, like the risk profile of your lending pool changes meaningfully?

<< Erbil | Huma (58:38) >>:

Yeah, I think it's a good question. Go ahead, Richard.

<< Richard Liu (58:39) >>:

I would have

I would say that's actually attenuously enforceable future. Our principle is still going to be keep very tight and we are going to we're not going to add the cost for risk or security for growth. I'll say we will continue to put a very heavy focus on your risk one because we risk management because there are so many demanded there. We can still just be very selective and because the reason for that one for purely trade fair people they understand.

If you have 1 % project risk default, if you give me 2 or 3 % extra yield, I buy it. That's building risk taking. That's people buy it. But in crypto world, people don't have that mindset yet. So at this moment, if we introduce some, there is some default people, although the default volume may be small, but people will overreact to it. And people will not react in rational way. So that's why.

From day one, we have been very careful about the prioritizing risk and the security from that side.

<< Erbil | Huma (59:46) >>:

And you can imagine like some of that capital coming back is going into different types of like buffer reserves, right? So we do have an institutional side, for example, something called a long-loss reserve, right? So there's some of the actually money coming in is going into creating that kind of buffer for absorbing, you know, what might be a potential, you know, default in the future. So you're going to build more of those, I think buffer zones and buffer, you know, layers.

<< Jason Kam (59:46) >>:

Got it.

<< Erbil | Huma (00:12) >>:

into the whole thing.  to Richard's point, our goal is to keep the exposure as low as possible. And we are known as a team from our previous company expertise to actually have managed this really, really well. We are known as the gold standard, what we have built in the previous FinTech where we all work together.  We built a very, very scalable business. They scale to more than half a billion dollars in revenues.  And with one of the lowest...

risk default rates in the whole industry. you know, that has been kind of like our focus area and expertise area. And we're going to continue to keep it as a priority.

<< Jason Kam (01:00:53) >>:

That's helpful. We cover a lot of the business. We're running long time as well, asked for an hour. Is there any other things that really excite you or anything that we haven't covered yet you want to sort of cover in the last bit?

<< Erbil | Huma (01:01:07) >>:

We covered a lot of things.

<< Jason Kam (01:01:08) >>:

Yeah, we'll have lot of things.

<< Richard Liu (01:01:09) >>:

Yeah,

we actually covered all the angles, but if you of course we talk about a lot of business then I think most of the ones when you take up protocol to a new level. Most likely is the platform play. After day one we always said that Huma as a platform and then we are part of all kinds of killer apps. I think that platform building in shape actually in a faster way.

Especially what we already talked about, I want to underscore it. And the distribution, PST distribution with all the Solana DeFi ecosystem plugged into everything, that gave us the level of success we got in two months has far exceeded my expectation. I think the impact of that one will be very, very big.

<< Jason Kam (01:02:02) >>:

It's like a  that actually does BD. We'll see.

<< Erbil | Huma (01:02:03) >>:

And I think.

Chris.

<< Richard Liu (01:02:08) >>:

Yeah. Yeah.

<< Erbil | Huma (01:02:11) >>:

Yeah, and I think on the other macro, let's say, is to me the growth of the PayFi ecosystem, the growth of this new category of asset that I believe is gonna continue to bring net new inflows on stablecoins and create a very productive use case for them.  I think that is...

going to defy people's belief that stable coins is only for maybe trading. I think we believe this moment is so much bigger than just like what we are enabling.

having got that flag from Solana Foundation because you know, Solana Foundation created the term PayFi to define this category that they really believe in and they built Solana Pay and built a lot of different relationships and they're really pushing very hard. And they give this flag to us and said, you you guys are really at the forefront of this  and you have the right team and expertise and the platform and the capabilities to really like help create adoption.

And as much as we focus on, know, humans growth, we also focus on the growth of the ecosystem and helping anybody who wants to, you know,  adapt, you know.

anything related to PayFi. And we have a lot of old partners, for example, they have millions of users, they have billions in assets in custody, self custody or otherwise, they all want to enable some kind of payment solutions. And we want to also see our role in that play to help them really quickly find the right solutions, find the right partners, compose the right capabilities  and just build rapidly to create more and more opportunities for people to just adopt.

what we believe is the main use case of Bitcoin and blockchain.

<< Jason Kam (01:03:59) >>:

 Last question, guess. After Circle IPO, did you call Jeremy? Do you know what he's going to do with that billion dollars? Is he going to jam into you, your relationship? It's foster. I figure I might ask.

<< Erbil | Huma (01:04:14) >>:

Yeah, so Jeremy and I go way back and actually quick maybe fun story so Circle's CTO Lee Fan is a very close friend of Richard and Li Fan calls Richard one day and says, you

 Richard, we're looking to hire a chief product officer for Circle. This is like way before, before we start to Huma Do you have a recommendation, know,  because Richard worked in Silicon Valley and worked with amazing, you know, product leaders and Richard says, you know, I have this friend and partner and colleague I worked with at Ernan, you know, Erbil and you should talk to him.

<< Richard Liu (01:04:55) >>:

I ranked him number two PM in the world. Number one is a Sundar Pichai. And I really appreciate Sundar as a product manager, but Erbil as well. So that's why I named him third.

<< Erbil | Huma (01:05:07) >>:

Yeah, so Google CEO is hard to compete with, you know, was kind enough

to put me on number two. And, know, I got a very serious conversation with Jeremy. sat at his home, you know, long hours and many conversations with people in circle, I even started advising some of the, you know, team members already. And I really loved like what they were doing. And he really sold me on this like stable coin, like story and what he wanted to do. He had a very clear vision.

And I was sold. I was actually ready to, you know,  jump on board and then like literally as I'm like making this decision and just like make you my, you know, mental model to start it, it gets started on, ⁓ you know, leading that effort with, you know, with Jeremie at circle, Richard calls me and says, Erbil, you make a decision? I'm like almost there. I'm thinking about actually joining and it's like, let me make it hard for you or harder for you.

<< Jason Kam (01:05:59) >>:

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

<< Erbil | Huma (01:06:04) >>:

I think we

can do something together that's going to be even more disruptive. Right. And that's, how we started Huma. And obviously, you know, we talked to Jeremy and the whole team leadership team very often.

<< Jason Kam (01:06:07) >>:

Hmm.

<< Erbil | Huma (01:06:15) >>:

We congratulate them during the day of IPO and they're very appreciative, obviously, because we have one of the largest use cases on Circle, real world use cases on Circle, right, on USDC. And they were bullish about, you know, how we're going to enable this new network they have built, which is the, payment network that they really want to like bring it to everywhere in the world. And we are a very critical partner for them because we are the enabler for, you know, either party that's plugging into the network on both ends. So they really want us to like plug in and grow with them.

going forward. So we are lucky to have partners like that and because it makes...

<< Jason Kam (01:06:52) >>:

And they're going to step up their existence to you.

OK, with more money for sure. Great. Good story, by the way. We would have sized up in the private check if you told us that story in the very earlier days. But I don't have anything else. Yeah, go ahead.

<< Erbil | Huma (01:07:03) >>:

Thanks for watching.

<< Richard Liu (01:07:06) >>:

I

confirm that story is true.

<< Jason Kam (01:07:12) >>:

That's funny.

<< Erbil | Huma (01:07:12) >>:

Thank you.

<< Jason Kam (01:07:15) >>:

don't think the members have any questions, but  Richard Erbil, thank you so much for your time. This is great.

<< Erbil | Huma (01:07:22) >>:

Now thank you, Jason.

<< Richard Liu (01:07:23) >>:

Thank you.

As usual, every time talking to you is just such a joy.

<< Jason Kam (01:07:28) >>:

Thank you.